Why the shift away from veganism in the raw world?

By Sarah Best.

As you may already have noticed, a big change has taken place in the raw food world, and this change is ongoing. More and more raw food authors, coaches and speakers are coming forward either to say they're not vegan anymore, to publicly promote the health benefits of certain animal products, or to warn that the vegan diet does not provide all necessary nutrients so vegans must supplement.

Taking into account those raw leaders who have never been completely vegan anyway, we can now count very few raw food promoters who are 100% vegan themselves and who also say that a 100% raw vegan diet provides us with everything we need (i.e. that there is no need to supplement). We decided a while ago that this phenomenon deserved a closer look, so we have been busy discussing this shift with our contacts and also investigating what may be causing it.

Before going any further, we wish to acknowledge the gigantic ethical and environmental justifications for avoiding animal products, and the fact that for many, eating these foods is not an option, regardless of any alleged or real health benefits. And indeed this is why
there are passionate vegans who do not believe the vegan diet is our natural diet, but who choose to stay vegan and supplement rather than consume animal products.

Today we bring you the opinions of five people who are well-known in the raw food community. This is a small cross section of the comments we've collected, and it is representative of the answers we've been hearing in response to our question, "Why has there been a shift away from veganism in the raw movement?"

 

  

Fred Bisci is a nutritionist and food scientist. He has been following a raw diet for over 40 years. He is vegan and believes a raw vegan diet can be the healthiest way to eat if people do it correctly, which means monitoring their nutrient levels and supplementing where necessary.

“What has come out is only the tip of the iceberg. Regardless of whether raw promoters are really doing what they're saying or comprehending what they're doing, people shouldn’t just follow blindly. There are many out there telling others their philosophy and their anecdotal stories about how to be raw vegan without understanding all the variables that apply to the physiology and chemistry of the human body. There are no two ways about it – a raw vegan lifestyle done correctly is fantastic. But we have to approach this with as much science as we have available. People really have to know what they’re doing when they’re 100% raw vegan long term.

As the years go by, those on a vegan lifestyle have to watch out for B12 deficiency, and if they live in a cold climate, for vitamin D deficiency. People can also run short of trace minerals. When people come to see me, the first thing I ask is whether they have had a recent blood work and if not I tell them to go get a complete blood test, including nutrient profile. In some cases people may have to take some B12 and vitamin D and mineral supplements. If they do this, animal protein is not necessary. This is how I live. For those who want to eat animal protein, it must be clean, in moderation, and in the context of a high-raw, plant-based approach.  

If someone has been eating raw vegan for 10 or 20 years or longer and they go back to animal protein the possibility does exist that they can develop a serious disease. I have seen it happen more times than I like to remember. If a person has truly been eating 100% raw, the longer they do it the more risk they take by going back. You don't need to eat 100% raw vegan to live a long, healthy life. However, this lifestyle, for those who do it correctly, can produce optimal results.”

 

Elaine Bruce is the founder and director of the UK Centre for Living Foods and has been following Dr Ann Wigmore’s living foods programme for over two decades. She is no longer vegan since being diagnosed with an essential fatty acid deficiency, despite taking a daily dose of flax oil.

“I recently went back to using a little dairy, specifically cottage cheese mixed with my daily dose of flax oil, in order to assimilate this oil supplement which is so essential to a balanced intake of essential fatty acids (EFAs). There is good research to support this move, for example Joanna Budwig's work on flax oil, which underpins the more recent work of writers on oils and EFAs, notably Udo Erasmus, who acknowledges her work. My experience, though I was very reluctant to take this step, is feeling better balanced, and noticing that a state of occasional brain-fog lifts very soon after eating a little cottage cheese with flax oil.

It is difficult to take on board that our ideal of veganism, while ethically admirable, may in fact be injurious to health in the long term. It's worth considering that we have only been experimenting with versions of the vegan diet for a few decades; not long enough to know what the long-term effects are for most people. Another variable is our genetic type. Not all of us thrive on the same diet, and this research also is in its infancy."

 

Raw food author and speaker Dr Douglas Graham has been following a raw vegan diet for 30 years, and teaches that our natural and optimal diet is an unsupplemented, high-fruit, low-fat, 100% raw vegan diet.

“Human beings operate under a comprehensive set of natural laws that can only be proven, never broken. When we make short-term lifestyle or food style deviations outside of those laws, there is always a price to pay, and the body will always let us know, via the creation and ongoing generation of signs and symptoms, that something is amiss. Typically, when we follow a diet that is not taking us where we hope and expect to go, we intuitively know it is time to change our diet. Incremental dietary improvements will result in proportional health improvements, but ideal health can only be achieved when we practice and follow an ideal health and dietary regimen.

It comes as no surprise to me that many leaders of the raw food movement are now openly admitting that they have been eating non-vegan foods. The writing has been on the wall for years. All one needs to do is look at the lack of results these leaders are showing in their own personal health, notice how they go from program to program, or add up the nutritional and calorie numbers and see that that they do not add up to healthy results.

When I heard raw food leaders saying such things as, “calories are a dead issue,” “don't crunch the numbers, just eat raw food,” “fruits and vegetables are a waste of time nutritionally,” “you can learn to live without eating fruit,” “each person has to find what works for them,” and giving other scientifically unsound and unsustainable advice, I knew it was only a matter of time till they would have to admit that the program they were following was not working for them. The truth always wins out, and nature's laws cannot be ignored.”

 

Holly Paige, author of the upcoming book Food for Consciousness, was previously raw vegan and now follows and promotes a non-vegan raw diet.  

“In my view, the simple explanation is that an increasing number of people are finding out that raw veganism does not work long term. Contrary to what people hear when they first get involved, the raw movement is littered with nutritional casualties. It was only a few years ago that substantial numbers of people started to go raw vegan and it can take years for the symptoms of deficiency to show up. As there has been little information available about the potential pitfalls of raw diets, it has taken a lot of time to find out and share the information about how to avoid them – and they can be avoided for sure. 

Ironically many of the people who have spoken out have done so after experience of many years being or trying to be raw vegan. They were in favour of the ideal as much as anyone – they just found it didn't work in practice. In fact it was in dedication to the ideal that the pitfalls were discovered. The issues seem to be particularly acute in temperate climates and with children – there are too many to detail here but a couple of the major ones are lack of fat-soluble vitamins and B12. We do not need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The ethical production of raw dairy products, for example, is easily possible, especially if we are willing to engage in honest economics.”

 

Shazzie has been vegan for 25 years and raw for 10 but teaches that in order to be healthy on a vegan diet, it is essential to take the right supplements. In her 2008 book, Evie’s Kitchen, she lays out the nutrients which are either absent on vegan diets, or hard to get enough of.

“Of course we want to be compassionate to all beings, yet we can’t ignore the fact that our species hasn’t evolved to be 100% vegan. This means that if we choose to be vegan without supplementing (and especially raw, eschewing all fortified cooked products), we miss out on vital nutrients such as B12, choline, vitamin K2 and vitamin D (in some countries) and we may be low in all B vitamins, DHA, minerals and other nutrients. I spent four years researching how to have a 100% vegan diet that would work long term (ensuring no deficiencies) for both adults and developing children alike, and put the detailed findings in my book Evie’s Kitchen.

I did this because I want to remain vegan and I want the raw food culture to have every chance of raising healthy children – vegan or not. If you aren’t prepared to supplement yourself or your child, then you shouldn’t be vegan because the risk of deficiencies is too high. We are talking about more than vitamin B12 and it’s about time all vegan promoters acknowledged this for the sake of our future generations of vegan children.

I have spoken to many of the raw foodists who are turning to animal products, and the general consensus is they never had vegan ethics before going into raw food, it’s just that some people were shouting so loud about raw veganism that it appealed to their ideals of purification and detoxification at the time. Yet now they are aware there are other, non-vegan ways of eating raw food, they’re giving it a go. Quite often they haven’t been supplementing in the way I recommend, so the addition of animal products makes them feel better than being an unsupplemented vegan. Neither way is wrong, I just want people to be healthy and happy.”

We haven’t only been speaking to well-known raw food experts about this issue. We’ve also been asking our friends, readers and customers. A surprising phenomenon we’ve uncovered is that many raw food enthusiasts who identify themselves as vegans are in fact not totally vegan. Whether it’s a free range organic egg or a little raw goat’s cheese once a week or some fish once a month, these people think of themselves as vegan and will tell you they’re vegan – no doubt because, unlike the average eater, most of what they eat is completely free of anything animal-based and they wish to keep it that way. This makes us wonder how many more who identify themselves as vegans are doing the same but not admitting to it.

We have been collecting a vast amount of information, both scientific and anecdotal, on the topic of raw vegan diets and we’ll be back with more of that information soon – next time with the focus on the scientific. For now we’re interested in what you think, so please leave a comment on this post and let us, and other readers, know, and also be sure to include any questions you’d like answered on this topic.

Comments

[lynn]

Best to describe oneself as "almost vegan"..that way..when we are tempted by a fried egg......or a piece of cheese occasionally...we can be true to ourselves..Lynn

[Anette Herbert]

I have been a raw vegan for a year, and am really enjoying the health benefits of this diet. But the B12 issue is a bit confounding. If being raw vegan is the best for us, how come we can become deficient in B12? Is the natural state of a human being a state where B12 is produced in the guts or assimilated from certain vegan food, but we have lost that ability through eating meat for thousands of years? Or were we originally meant to have a little bit of animal B12 for optimum health?

The Fresh Network responds: A very good question. We will be addressing this, and all other important issues raised by our readers, in future articles on this topic. So please keep the questions coming!

[Merryl Catlow]

Thank you for your great work - SO useful!

I recently found a site that has diet software for calculating what's in what you're eating. It's in development, so not perfect yet, but it's free and you can set your preferences. I used it and became aware that my diet is low in folates and vit D...so it helped to give me pointers on which foods to increase, or what supplements to take. It's call the CRON-O-Meter - http://spaz.ca/cronometer/. Of course there are probably others, but I found this useful for a start.

[Janet Kent]

I honestly believe that to be totally vegan is not the way to be really healthy if you have not been vegan before. I consider myself 95% vegan as I do eat free range organic eggs from my happy hens a couple of times a week and some goats cheese probably once a week. I also eat yogurt that is organic. I am 72 yrs old and in perfect health. When I tried to be vegan I felt tired all the time and became very listless. Vegan diet is not for me.

[Springtime]

Read Dr. Schnitzer's books (http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/sin002.htm) and you will know what is the real raw vegan diet and why.

[belinda kate]

hmm..dairy seems to be the focus here, yet if you consider that its a fairly new concept to consume the baby food of another species, it wouldn't make a lot of sense that our bodies actually need the stuff.

you could argue of course that we have evolved to process it, but there is a decent amount of evidence to contradict that, with lactose intolerance being common, particularly in african americans.

as far as i know the only vital ingredient lacking in the raw vegan diet would be particular fats that are unfortunately found only in fish. there are close seconds found in the vegetable world, but they're not the same.

we were animals long before we had ethics and its frustrating that our bodies don't care much about the latter!

[Max Tuck]

From my own research & experience, and from living at 50 degrees north my whole life, I find that a 100% raw vegan diet works best for ME PERSONALLY when it is supplemented. I have followed the raw vegan lifestyle for 12 years, and a high raw, but not totally vegan diet for 8 years before that. I personally would avoid dairy as it is a food designed for a young mammal, not an adult one, particularly of the wrong species. I also follow a low fruit regime as a high fruit intake caused a loss of dental enamel.
I feel better when I supplement than when I do not, and believe that it is not possible to remain healthy and vegan this far north, for extended periods, without supplementation.
Max Tuck, Hippocrates Health Educator

[Jayne Orton]

I have been vegan since the age of l5 and rawfood/vegan since the age of 35. I do use a mineral and vitamin supplement. I am now a very healthy and fit 50 year old woman and in the menopause. Could you tell me of potential risks. I recently had blood tests for B12 and other deficiencies. All came back normal. Jayne

[Justyn Vallori]

Norman Walker, who wrote a number of excellent books on Health issues, among them "Raw Vegetable Juices", "Colon Health" etc. ingested only raw fruits and veggies and their juices, nuts and seeds. He lived to be 120 years old.

Now, I have recently had an eating disorder and was told that after a person reaches 50 years of age, they begin to fail to metabolize their food properly, so I now use enzymes, a multi-vitamin and mineral supplement, the lactose and sugar free whey protein powder, bacillos, with very little lactos, B12 and am doing much better.

I have been vegetarian, never totally vegan (I eat a little cheese) or totally raw for 50 years and cannot even contemplate the thought of eating a putrefying, rotten smelling corpse.

So I do think we each have to find our own way. Supplementing is working for me.

[Elena]

I have been vegan [not all raw] for over 3 years now, and the only reason I started to use certain supplements is to get my body balance in order from my pre-vegan days, when my body became difficient in many minerals, due to non-vegan diet.

At this point I would find it VERY hard to try to eat animal products, as I really had also developed compassion toward the animal world and believe that no one being should die to become my food.

I do, however, believe that most people living in colder climets, vegan on not, need vit D supplementation [case in point, my non-vegan sister was just tested and found that she is vitamin D deficcient, while I tested in the normal range].

[Jeni Cook]

Dear Sarah,

After our conversation last week I'm so glad you've brought this issue to everyone's attention. Too many people are being left feeling confused, deceived and somewhat disillusioned by conflicting information in the raw food world, as have I.

I count myself as a raw food vegan because that's the lifestyle I live the majority of the time but, I admit, not all the time because that's what works for ME. I have always been very honest about this however.

I promote health, consciousness & balance, but I find the vegan raw food world in particular can be very judgmental which is why maybe so many are afraid to be honest. Being vegan or raw isn't meant to be a religion. It's a lifestyle choice, and should be lived in a way that suits the person living it.

Shouldn't making the effort to live healthier to some degree - be it veggie, vegan or raw - in this unhealthy world count for something! One size does not fit all!!! We're meant to be promoting health, not fear, & if eating fish now & again or dairy works for one, why should someone else feel the need to judge. We are all imperfect people living in an imperfect world. Any choice toward health, be it big or small, is a good choice.

Jeni Cook, health writer, health educator & raw food chef.

[E.M.]

Thank you so much for the email it is an issue I am currently having. The only animal product I have is three whole raw eggs a day. Do you think that this is enough to get sufficient B12 and vitamin D?

Also I would be grateful if you could advise how I go about getting my blood tested and how often I need to do this.

Many thanks.

[Kanen]

I have been high raw/raw for over 10 years. Recent blood tests show low iron, and B12 and Vit D deficiency. I appreciate the work of Fresh to bring out an open discussion on the subject. Thank you. I would love to hear from Brian Clement, Gabriel cousins, and David Wolfe. Recently I listened to Brian Peskin on Patrick Tempone's radio show (fantastic to hear many different angles from experts from many fields) and readers may find Brian Peskin's comments on EFA deficiency/balancing very interesting. My health improved when I widened the circle of health educators and scientists I listened to and when I honestly looked at the results I wasn't getting. Still, I find that eating highest quality food and not too much of it gives me the best results.

[rob]

of course , all the raw freaks told me not to be a fruitarian, well i have been over 20 years! No sickness, do triathlons, weightlifting. work 9 hours a day as a labourer gruesome hard, on nothing at all, no fruit, no water, nadda! Thats because ive cleansed myself did hundreds of colonics, no my blood is purified and makes food out of oxygen, i eat 2 pieces of fuit a day, in winter more, cause I eat for pleasure, not cause im hungry at all, I just love fresh oranges or mangos, i live in holland dark and cold and wet, yet i m never sick and i dont have any!ANY! nutritional deficiencies. Raw fooders who eat vegetables, which is not meant to be eaten at all by humans, cause it tastes like shit raw, we are meant to eat fruit and fruit only i am a teacher who proofs that a high fruit diet IS the ONLY diet for man!

[Nicola]

I find it hard to believe that my raw/vegan diet, which is filled with fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, oils and superfoods is going to be any more deficient than the average British diet, which primarily consists of wheat, wheat and more wheat. Plus heaps of sugar and salt and poor quality dairy and meats. I experience better health now than I did on both a meat and vegetarian diet. The anxiety caused by worrying excessively about your diet probably contributes more to a nutrient deficiency!

[rosie ro]

Whenever i crave meat (usually liver - just before my period!!) or fish - i will buy it, i also eat eggs occasionally and a bit of quality unpasturised cheese if i fancy them, probably about once a month, but more in the winter. I wouldn't be able to eat animal products all the time, my body would just slow right down, but sometimes i feel that i actually need them and that isn't bad or un ethical, it's realistic and enoyable!

[Andrew Blease]

I first attempted the raw vegan lifestyle more than 30 years ago. Whilst regularly experimenting with diet since then, I am having greater success today owing to access to the masses of information available and the support of those following a similar path. I have been 95% raw vegan for 2.5 years now and am convinced it represents our "species specific diet" and provides the key to optimum health. However, for most, the transition needs to be taken carefully...and with support. The caloric ratios of 80/10/10 are extremely important, as is the sufficient consumption of greens via the green smoothie. Healthy gut flora is crucial to good health and should be monitored to ensure optimum utilisation of nutrients.

Diet is only one facet of health. Optimum health will only be attained through an wholistic approach to body, mind and spirit.

Andrew Blease...Thrive on Live wellness coaching.

[Mandy]

I am so glad this topic has been brought to the fore. I have tried and failed for many years to be 100% raw vegan. I feel like a failure and I feel so guilty for eating either meat or cooked carbohydrates. This discussion has taken a weight of my mind. I will continue to eat high raw and supplement and eat meat and other cooked food too as this is what seems right for me.

Thanks again

[Neil]

Having been 'Raw' for many years, I've never been comfortable describing my eating as 'vegan'. It's a concept and word which doesn't occur in the cultural traditions renown for their longevity e.g. the Hunza who occasionally eat the products of their animals for ritual or ceremonial purposes.

Additionally, from some of my studies into the spiritual wisdoms such as The Essenes, they quote foods to be raw but not necessarily vegan .... "eat nothing which a stronger fire than the fire of life has killed. Prepare and eat all fruits of trees, all grasses of the fields, all milk of beasts good for eating (i.e. not pasteurised or heat-treated), honey of bees. All these are fed and ripened by the fire of life; all are the gift of the angels of our Earthly Mother."

In my diet of recent years, I therefore include small but regular portions of raw goats milk and unpasteurised goats cheese. I've managed to source a local specialist farm where I can also go to meet the lovely goats (kept almost as pets)! Clearly, they are not suffering in any way and therefore I have no problem either!

Neil

[Susie Demere]

I don't beleive this because I had a blood test and my iron, B12, VD, calcam, and my chrorestoral are all at great levels because I have been taking Spirulina for a few years now.

Susie

[Charles W. Jones]

Hello,

Someone wrote that Norman Walker lived to 120 years of age and ate only raw fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds. As a matter fact, I believe he lived to 117, and did consume some goat milk and goat cheese, sea veggies and a little cooked foods, though which cooked foods was not identified. He may also have supplementsd his diet with D, E, B-12 and green powders. If someone wants to learn from someone who is extremely healthy, strong and fit, they should check out "Peter Ragnar" at peterragnar.com. He does not consume animal products, but does supplement' and, at 80 plus, is considered one of the strongest men in the world.

Charles

[Barbara Weith]

AS a vegan for over 15 years and 95% raw vegan for a year, I have always wondered why the raw community always seems to shy away from nutritional numbers and/or supplements. I have a nutritional analysis program and monitor my intake of various nutrients to make sure I REALLY consume them. Surely food-based supplements strategically taken are a lot more prudent than automatically jumping back into meat and dairy with all the pitfalls. A little nutritional science applied on a daily basis goes a long way...

[Leo A Blair II]

Just a small comment about all that has been said in the blog. I would love to see more Evidence Based information and one should at least sight a study when referring to specific subjects. Dr D. Graham is right on the money in all that he says.
Keep the Blog moving.

[Darlene]

I have been raw for 3 years now (100%, or close). I have done no red meat for 30 years or dairy for 20 years. Sometimes I think I want something but I do not know what it is. I do like the idea of cottage cheese or goat products. I do take b 12 and green supplements and efa's. am I missing anything?

I really enjoyed reading the info you just sent me. Thanks so much and keep me informed.

[Angie Bedson]

I think one of the misleading things in the raw food world is the term 'raw vegan'. It obviously attracts those who are already vegan (which is fine) but then I think some of them place too much emphasis on the vegan part and forget about the true origins of this diet - that is, RAW, uncooked, unadulterated food.

Personally, I food-combined for 12 years before I came to raw food 11 years ago. I was not vegan when I food-combined - not even vegetarian as I ate organic white meat and some goats cheese - because I was seeking super nutrition. I took high quality supplements because I felt then and still do feel that EVERYBODY these days, whatever their diet, needs supplementation due to intensive farming methods and increasingly highly hybrid foods. People on SUKD are probably woefully lacking in some nutrients. My main focus has always been to get the optimum nutrition/absorption from my food so the raw food diet was like the answer to my dreams. Uncooked equals unadulterated, recognisable (to the digestion) high quality nutrients. Raw meat was not an appetising option (which is a big clue! We should always listen to our instincts!)and I truly believe we are not biologically designed for it (our teeth and digestive abilities are nothing like the true carnivores).
As regards B12, I think if we were out there scraping in the ground for our berries and greens we would be ingesting insects and soil and get the necessary B12 naturally. So, I take B12 supplements. If I lived in a hot, sunny climate I would be getting my vitamin D the natural way but as I don't, again I supplement. Not ideal but then neither is the state of modern food production so we all have to make compromises. Supplementation, though, should be as rigorously sourced as our organic food, we need high quality, food-quality supplementation NOT isolated vitamins.
Thanks for the article. For some time now, I've been thinking 'raw food vegan' is a misnomer and this has just shown that it is. Raw food is about raw food not veganism. We should call ourselves something like 'Vitarians' because we are all about sourcing vital, viable food so we can live with abundant vitality.